Cacophony, Drama and Destiny: Perspectives on the American Election and challenging Idolatry in the Church

Aug 29, 2024 | America

“I don’t know if it is right to bring politics into religion, but it is certainly right to bring religion into politics.”
Charles Gore, (celebrated Bible commentator and one time Bishop of Oxford)

As in 2020, I am once again feeling the call to devote a great deal of thought, prayer, and attention to the American election in the strong belief that this matters a great deal to the Lord. As most of you know, I felt a strong burden then that Donald Trump should not claim a victory that he had not won, and on this occasion too I find myself addressing the whole issue from a very different standpoint to the great majority of those who one would normally assume to be one’s home base: the tens of millions of evangelical Americans who continue to lend him their support.

As you can imagine, this is an uncomfortable position to be in, but a seismic threat to democracy remains. Given that the kingdom of God is ultimately not a democracy, it will be worth pondering on another occasion why democracy in America (imperfect though it is) remains so important not only for America but also for the sake of many other nations too.

I know that what I am sharing here will resonate deeply with the majority of you who are reading these words, but for those of who think differently, this will be a hard piece to read. By all means treat it as an opinion piece, but please be willing to consider the issues with an open heart – and continue to pray for American believers (and indeed all of us) to be more discerning, as opposed to prejudiced or gullible. None of us see perfectly. And n the last resort, whether we veer more towards the red, yellow, green, blue or some other colour in our politics, our citizenship is in Heaven, and our primary allegiance must belong there. Our desire is not that the political map should all turn one particular colour, but rather that we should all be working together for the time when the world is bathed in the light of Heaven’s glorious champion, when  “The kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah – who will reign for ever and ever.”

You will find a wealth of links to follow up, both to scriptural matters and to events that either have happened or that are still unfurling that I think you will find insightful, and, in some cases hopefully enriching too. Do take the time to explore.

My aim here, however, that the commentary and prayers for the situations as they are now should also ‘work’ as pointers that will continue to be relevant for guiding our prayers throughout the remaining seventy or so days before the election, no matter what the twists, turns and unexpected events are that crop up along the way.

There are so many issues to ponder and pray into here that it is not surprising that many either ignore them completely, or approach the whole matter from such a fixed position that they believe there is nothing more to say on the matter. It is not so much the predictive element as to who is going to win the election that is the main thing here, (although as we shall see in this reportage it is certainly interesting to hear someone declare the opposite of the mainstream prophetic flow on that subject – perhaps somewhat along the lines of Micaiah and the four hundred prophets of 1 Kings 22:6-8?) – but rather the attempt to address the whole issue of idolatry in the American church.

Let it be said very clearly, there are an incredible number of utterly sincere and genuine Christians amongst Trump’s supporters. But one issue that continues to stand out, as it did in 2020, is the idolatry that lies at the heart of so much of the pro-Trump movement, (just as it does in a different form in the Democrat camp, where certain beliefs that it holds very dear to its identity pose considerable major problems for the majority of Christians). David Jackson commented,

This is of the greatest possible importance because it is corrupting the purity of the Church’s mission and message, and undermining the gospel in the eyes of millions. The very fact that Trump was given the platform for an hour at a Christian Convention struck me as dishonourable for the Church to give conference time to a political figure who has nothing edifying to say to the Lord’s people, let alone one with his dubious record and self-exalting attitudes.’ (This was the event at which Trump made some bizarre and alarming remarks about Christians needing to voting for him just this once because it would not be necessary to do so again in the future because he would ‘fix it’).

There is something coming to the surface here which once more exposes the root problem of America believing themselves the chosen nation. Somewhere in the history and psychology of the USA God, chosenness and nation have become unhealthily intertwined. This may well have played it part in leading to deviant doctrines such as Mormonism. I even wonder if the ‘God Bless America’ phrase, that is so deeply embedded in the national psyche does not border on the harmful because it appears to exult America as being of special status, and is therefore playing its part in leading to the potential creation of a false God, at least in people’s minds.

To give an idea of how polarised matters have become, a friend of mine, who is a vicar, was preaching earlier this summer in a church in one of the ‘red’ American states. Someone happened to mention something that Joe Biden was doing, which caused someone to scream out, ‘Don’t mention that devil in here!’ Such partisanship is unfortunately only too common, as this brief but powerful expose of extreme Christian nationalism shows only too clearly.

Idolatry in the American church: a prophetic word from someone in our group

“With whom will you compare me or count me equal?
To whom will you liken me that we may be compared? (Is. 46:5)

I love the first part of Hosea 9:10 when it says that finding Israel was to the Lord ‘like finding grapes in a desert.’ It made me reflect on how precious we are as a readership to the Lord, as well as individuals. But look at how that verse continues, ‘They came to Baal-peor and consecrated themselves to the thing of shame, and became detestable like the thing they loved.’

The prophetic Scriptures repeatedly contrast God’s power and willingness to help versus the helplessness and haplessness of idolatry. No wonder John ends his first epistle by warning God’s people to steer clear of idols. (1 John 5:21) We have grown used to hearing leading prophets endorsing Trump as God’s chosen man – endorsements that have led the vast majority of America’s tens of millions of evangelicals to side with a man whose complete lack of truthfulness is a byword.

When pastors and prophets have seen through Donald Trump, and quite properly warned others, it is beyond sad to hear that so many of them are forced to leave their posts because of the intensity of the backlash against them. Calling out idolatry is a really challenging and costly thing to do; praise God for those who have the courage to do so.

I was pondering these things when I came across a brief but really significant clip that was being shown on a national news network, MSNBC, in which Loran Livingston, a traditional conservative pastor, takes a clear stand against what he sees as Trump’s blasphemous attempt to dragoon religious people into supporting his cause by promoting the sale of his Bible.

This coruscating message is well worth hearing. You will find helpful comments here too from seasoned commentators such as Russel Moore, the editor in chief of Christianity Today, (who makes the very sad point that church attendance is plummeting in America as people tire of its polarising attitudes) and David French, who wrote an article I highlighted some years ago, ‘The Spiritual Lessons of a Christian Nationalist Military Defeat’, in which he warns that Evangelicals in America have gone from being the sector most concerned about the importance of character in politicians to being the least concerned.

Everyone who challenges corrupt vested interests is sure to pay a heavy price, but it is crucial to realise that outcomes are not the only things that matter to the Lord: the whole process is crucial to Him. In practice, most people consider the cost of challenging too high, with the result that thy are simply backing back, and desperately hoping that it is all going to go away and settle down. This is a trend that has been going on now since Trump made the calculated decision before the 2016 election that he needed to woo the evangelical vote in order to get himself elected. It has done – and continues to be doing – a great deal of harm to the cause of Christ in the nation.*

May the Lord raise up more and more people – and leaders in particular – who are prepared to stand for truth. Bless those like Loran Livingston who are prepared to call out the whole nature of the idolatry that has invaded the American church – for otherwise we are in great danger of seeking first not the living God but rather the political kingdom – which cannot bring life and truth in its wake, but rather an entirely different spirit.

The scale of Trump’s ambitions and a renewed attempt to challenge Donald Trump’s immunity from prosecution

There are those who see in Trump a potential dictator along the lines of Adolph Hitler. Apart from the fact that Trump long kept a book of Hitler’s speeches by his bed, this is pushing things too far. Hitler’s passion to ‘make Germany great again’ came not just with a toxic racist agenda, but also a determination to colonize Eastern Europe that far exceeds anything in either Trump’s heart or his ability to enact.

A more appropriate comparison would be with the seventh American president, Andrew Jackson. He was a macho populist, all for American (white) greatness, and deeply suspicious of the federal powers. Wikipedia comments that he was a ‘demagogue who ignored the law and the Constitution when it suited him,’ and who ‘displaced tens of thousands of Native Americans from their ancestral homelands east of the Mississippi (through his notorious Indian Removal Act) which resulted in thousands of deaths.’ Trump’s ‘drain the swamp’ is pure Jackson. Just consider the devastating effect it will have on so many people’s lives if Trump wins the election and carries out his intended mass deportations.

Adams and other founding fathers of the United States set out to make it impossible for the nation to be taken over by any one faction. By making the Republican party their own, however, Trump and his family and allies are unquestionably seeking to do just that, and to take over the executive. In this respect, it is very important to recognise the immense consequences there could be from the Trump-appointed judges in the Supreme Court’s decision to afford the former President all but unlimited immunity for his actions, past and future.

That is why the recent decision by another Grand Jury to indict Trump again on the original four core charges for attempting to overturn the election results is potentially so significant. It has already led to the surprise announcement that Special Counsel Jack Smith will be making another pitch to mount another legal challenge against Donald Trump – this time on the basis of him being a ‘challenger’ rather than a ‘president’ to try to find away to slimmed down indcitment that might possibly manage to work its way around the decision of the Supreme Court – who effectively presented Trump with a Handbook of how to avoid being charged.

Never in America’s history have we seen the Supreme Court using its majority in such a way to reconfigure the law in favour of one man. It goes without saying that Trump supporters see this majority as being a godsend to protect against a corrupt Department of Justice. Since many of us would start from the opposite end of the scale, it is clearly very important to be sufficiently well informed on the matter to be able to pray effectively into it.

This case is already all over the news; here is a sample of it from the Independent. (You will need to agree to accept cookies to be able to read it).

Or a selection here from Yahoo.

Under the new ruling this will not be an easy case to prove, however obvious the facts to many on the outside. As surely as a pro-Trump judge in Florida only too willingly dismissed out of hand the whole case against Trump for having documents by the boxful of national sensitivity lying around his home, we know that Chief Justice Roberts has already declared that any conversations between Trump and Pence (urging him to alter the electoral slates) are to be considered ‘official’ business, and hence immune from prosecution.

When the Trump-appointed justices on the Supreme Court ruled on July 1st 2024 that former presidents have considerable immunity from prosecution for ‘official’ acts, as many of us had forseen, they refused to define what constituted official and unofficial, but sent the matter back to a lower court to sort out the all-important implications. Effectively this delay all but guaranteed that the felony cases against Trump would not be acted on before the election. It goes without saying that Trump will find ways to cause all these charges to be dropped if he is successful in his reelection bid.

I asked for a verse this morning about this, and felt the Lord leading me to a very strong one from Psalm 64:8 (but see the context too). Please do weigh it and pray it in any way that you feel led to.

‘Their own tongues will ruin them, and all who see them will shake their heads in scorn.’ (Ps. 64:8 NLT)

No wonder that the Trump team celebrated what they called a major victory: one which their own legal team did not think they had any real prospect of winning when they first submitted it to the Supreme Court, given that no impartial person could legitimately consider it an ‘official’ act for Trump to have rung Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger to “find” enough votes to overturn Joe Biden’s majority of 11,000 votes.

Justice Sonia Sotomayor angrily dissented with the decision by her fellow Republican appointed justices, warning that

“In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law, and makes a mockery of the principle, foundational to our Constitution and system of government, that no man is above the law.”

The protection afforded presidents by the court, Sonia warns, is ‘just as bad as it sounds, and it is baseless . . . If he orders a naval Seal team to assassinate a political rival, he is immune. And if he organizes a military coup to hold on to power, he is immune. And if he takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon he is immune immune immune. The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably.’

When did we ever hear one Justice speaking in such terms against their own body before? But there again we have never, thank God, ever seen a serving president before inciting a mob to go and ‘fight like hell.’ (He used the word ‘fight’ twenty times), or warning that he will be a dictator on Day One of his new presidency.

Unless Trump is defeated in the election, I am afraid this decision may prove to be the prelude to everything I have been warning of for years. David Becker, an election law expert and the executive director of the nonprofit Centre for Election Innovation and Research, called the breadth of immunity granted to Trump “incredibly broad” and “deeply disturbing.”

“Almost anything that a president does with the executive branch is characterized as an official act,” he told reporters following the ruling. He said that “for any unscrupulous individual holding the seat of the Oval Office who might lose an election, the way I read this opinion is that it could be a roadmap for them seeking to stay in power.”’

At a stroke it feels as though this decision has gone a long towards undermining faith in the rule of law in America – the one thing that was still holding America together in today’s radically polarized world. The fact that Trump obtained so much (though not quite all) of what he wanted is a sign of just how much influence his sway has over his own appointees on the Supreme Court.

We should obviously pray for the lower court as it seeks to disentangle what constitutes official as opposed to unofficial acts. This may play a significant part in determining whether the democratic rule of the law can be maintained under a renewed Trump presidency.

Why a second Trump presidency could bring about Fascist rule

One member of our prayer team commented that the decision by the Supreme Court is effectively giving the President the same power that Putin has abrogated to himself (e.g. to ‘neutralize’ political opponents). Another pointed out that this is reminiscent of the early days of the rise of fascist leaders in the 1920s.

I had long since made that connection, having ‘heard in my spirit’ the crowds that used to bay ‘Duce, Duce’ (‘Leader’ ‘Dictator’) in honour of Benito Mussolini, who is often referred to as the ‘first Fascist leader’. Like Trump, he thrived on adoring crowds.* I believe that something of this same spirit has long been at work in Trump’s vigorous and vainglorious partisan rallies: a fixation with the limelight that represents an open invitation for powers of darkness to exploit on the back of them. It is a relief that attendance at these rallies appears to be decreasing signifcantly, with many, presumably, tiring of hearing the same old grievances being endlessly and increasingly incoherently repeated.

Neither can we afford to forget the coup that Trump attempted against Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Mississippi: that truly horrendous moment when MAGA supporters came to seize her, and put her on a treason trial for her handling of the Covid crisis. The whole disgraceful episode was effectively a forerunner of the assault on the Capitol.

Let’s keep praying into all these things . . . not least for protection for all the many politicians judges and jurors who have received death threats from MAGA supporters – and for what happens from Jack Smith’s attempt to reactivate the indictment case.

A more than interesting word someone in our intercessory group sent me recently:

‘Over the past few days my readings have prompted me to think that God is confirming to his people that our vocation as Christians is to make the invisible visible, and to bring hidden things into the light. Your recent posts have motivated me to share something I felt that the Lord was telling me when I was praying for the Democratic Party in the aftermath of Joe Biden’s disastrous debate performance. Interestingly, I felt that the Democrats would win in November to serve for at least another four years [- which, of course, seemed all but impossible at the time].

‘As background, you should know that my politics are left of centre and that my concern for the church, particularly in America, centres around the fact that it has moved increasingly from a theology of the cross to a theology of glory [as set out in Martin Luther’s critique of the 16th century church, and which places a greater emphasis on human abilities and a human reason.]

‘You need to bear these points in mind when weighing what I believe I heard, and shave off whatever percentage you think is necessary.

‘Firstly, I thought I heard God reminding me that ‘our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms’. I had the sense that the powers of darkness were controlling parts of the church in America – and that there is a strong spiritual battle in the heavenly realms for the soul of America and the church in America.

‘Secondly, I thought I heard God saying that parts of the American church had fallen into idolatry, and that God was pointing me to the section in Ezekiel from Chapter 7 onwards, where God was obliged to depart from the Temple because of Israel’s idolatry. I had the sense that, unless there is contrition and repentance in America for this sin of idolatry, God would remove the favour that has been shown to it, and pass the spiritual torch to another continent east of America. This word resonates strongly with me in terms of our need as the Body of Christ to get our own house in order so that people will be drawn to the Light we carry.’

With events following a roughly similar pattern this time round, and many prophesying a Trump victory, it is interesting that this person, albeit with considerable trepidation lest they were merely hearing what they wanted to hear, felt that God had spoken about the outcome. I find it particularly interesting that this person should have received this word from the Lord (if indeed that is what it turns out to be) that the Democrats would win during the shambles of the presidential debate. To be sure, it is just a lone prediction in the opposite direction – and prediction is by no means the only or even the most significant facet we associate test of authentic prophecy.

Many of you may recall that in the midst of the flood of supposed ‘words from the Lord’ that so many prophets were giving back in 2020 that Trump was going to win the election, I shared a word that had been given by the Lord to a long-term Republican supporter, that He was going to allow Joe Biden to win the election because of the idolatry amongst Trump’s followers.

It is this aspect of idolatry that stands out. The Lord’s concern is for the American people, and for His people amongst the American people in particular, to recognise the spiritual forces that are at work directing people away from Jesus to pin their hopes on a particular person and party who are not worthy of such misplaced loyalty.

We passionately agree that there is a spiritual rather than just a political battle for the church in America, and for the soul of the nation. Large parts of the evangelical church in America have lost their Christ-centred moorings to the extent of putting an absurd degree of confidence in Donald Trump instead. Bearing in mind that anti (as in antichrist), means ‘instead of,’ we should take this very seriously.

As this person was praying for Joe Biden and the Democratic Party, there was a sense of the Lord inviting to overhear His thoughts on the struggle between cosmic forces within the heavenly realm. This far-reaching summary of how Trump is playing the religious card in order to provide extra support for his authoritarian stance also stands out as being noteworthy.

The person who sent me this word was struck by the inappropriateness of the comparison so many evangelicals are making between Trump and to King Cyrus, (even though he is only mentioned in this article almost as an aside. This is not the place to discuss why this is such a bizarre and idolatrous choice, but it did lead him to look into the death of Cyrus. According to Herodotus, Cyrus and his army were defeated in his final battle by a woman! Whether there is anything to read into that in terms of the election, only time will tell, but it certainly seems ironic.

I have been at pains for some time to say that a great deal has been happening in plain sight for many years now, because the Lord wants people to see precisely what sort of a man it is who begins many of his rallies by showing clips of the so-called ‘partisans’ storming the Capitol – and then to have sufficient wisdom and foresight to deduce from this where and to what such an approach would lead. By this reckoning our prayers should be every bit as much for the American people at large rather than for just for Trump himself.

Whether we ourselves veer more towards the #### repeated red, yellow, green, blue or some other colour in our politics, our citizenship is in Heaven, and our primary allegiance must belong there. Our desire is not that the political map should all turn one particular colour, but that it should be bathed in the light of Heaven’s glorious declaration: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” Amen! Be it said very clearly, there are an incredible number of utterly sincere and genuine Christians amongst Trump’s supporters, as well as sycophants, the deluded and the overly narrow or optimistic.

It is profoundly distressing to discover that many of these same churches are preaching openly that Vladimir Putin is God’s man, who is doing God’s work in destroying and wiping out all Ukrainians. We are looking at something truly horrible here. This, it seems to me, is the true and logical extension of the spirit Donald Trump has brought into politics. It is a language that threatens, demeans, and victimises whilst endlessly rehearsing grievances, punctuated by constantly referring to his ‘greatest hits’ by boasting of his friendship with North Korea and Putin, while at the same time making out that he himself is a victim of ‘deep state forces’.

The hope, joy and energy that were so evident in the Democratic Convention were a welcome contrast from this, with many upbeat uplifting and indeed noteworthy contributions being made in amongst the inevitable razzmatazz – but also the inevitable emphasis on certain things that millions of Christians regard with horror. With enormous pride being taken in supporting truly anti-Christian movements such as Stonewall, this is the reason why millions of believers take the line that since the spirit behind so much of the LGBTQ movement is so manifestly not of God that it must therefore be right to side with trump – or indeed with anyone who sides against that.

It is at this point that complications set in from every angle, with the question of whether it is right to side with issues independent of the character of the person who espouses being central to the argument. In the last resort, everyone has to make their judgement on where they choose to stand and place the fulcrum on that particular axis. My concern, as ever, is to do my best to see what and to where certain tendencies will lead – and at the fundamental idolatry that lies at the heart of so much.

Despite the far from ideal choice that people are facing, many of us nevertheless found many of the contributions at the DNC convention surprisingly refreshing. Much truth was expressed, and a great desire for honesty was evident. But where is the church to underpin that longing with biblical foundations? The Democrats have certainly done themselves no favours and failed take ground by not reaching out more to the Christian community. How wonderful it would be if the Christians in the Democrat party could speak up more for the centre ground and for orthodoxy.

Perhaps this, then, is where our prayer should be focused: ‘A Pauline-like ambush’ that does not seek so much to attack particular issues head-on (in his case slavery) but rather to await the right time and place to challenge it – and in the meantime to do the best one can to redeem it.

God is not impressed by either prejudice (thinking we know best), idolatry (thinking that someone or something other than God is best), or partisanship (for God loves all). (James 2:1-9, cf Matt. 9 12-13, Hosea 6:6) He does not appreciate the idolatry of assuming that He is to be associated exclusively with one side more than the other. There is a narrowness of outlook here – for He is looking for faith and pure love – and not for political mantras that are fuelled by party spirit.

Jesus’ way was to reach out to people so that they can be saved – but this should not blind us to those occasions when He made the most thundering denunciations against the scribes and Pharisees for doing things for show and to promote themselves, or following beliefs that were false. There were times and situations which called for the most complete exposure and denunciation – and on those occasions Jesus did so in the strongest possible terms, with words every bit as sharp and piercing as His cousin John the Baptist, or any Old Testament prophet.

As surely as we love to dwell on the passages that begins with the words ‘Blessed are . . .’, we should not neglect either such terms as ‘whitewashed sepulchres’ or those many verses that that begin with ‘Woe to . . .’

Ponder the words that Jesus directed towards Capernaum, Korazim and Bethsaida in Matthew 11:2-24 – and to Jerusalem, because it had failed to recognise the hour of its visitation (Luke 19:44, 23:28-31). We see the same thing expressed in a different way in Revelation 2 as the Lord upbraids the Churches that held to the teaching and practices of the Nicolaitans – beliefs that would have justified Him removing His lampstand from them.

The Pharisees did their best to make the people believe that Jesus was an imposter; in truth it was they who were the hypocrites. Jesus’s strongest ‘woes’ (the very opposite of blessings and therefore effectively curses) were directed at those He recognised to be hypocrites. Though even as He rebuked them, He showed His great compassionate desire for people to turn to Him and be saved.

Adam Kinzinger

I have long had respected Adam Kinzinger: one of a handful of serving Republicans who had the courage to testify on the January 6th Congress Committee that Trump had played a leading role in inciting the violence on Capitol Hill. With great courage he addressed the Democrat Conference as a Republican in order to sound the clearest warning that Trump has completely altered the whole nature of the Republican Party; to warn of the immense dangers that a second Trump term would pose – especially of course in the light of the verdict passed by judges Trump himself had elevated to the Supreme Court who have offered him all but unconditional immunity for anything that he does as President. In line with Kamala Harris’s warnings about Trump serving without “guardrails,” he urged Republicans to vote instead for Kamala Harris. Twelve leading White House Republican lawyers who served under Ronald Reagan and both the Bushes have written a letter saying the same thing, pointing to what they called “the profound risks presented by his [Trump’s] potential return to public office.

Indeed, Trump’s own Attorney General and National Security Adviser have said unequivocally that Donald Trump is unfit for office, dangerous, and detached from reality.” We cannot go along with other former Republican officials who have condemned Trump with these devastating judgments but are still not willing to vote for Harris,” they added. “We believe this election presents a binary choice, and Trump is utterly disqualified.”

Interestingly, although this was reported on right-wing outlet Fox News, the channel did not actually broadcast Adam Kinzinger’s pin point detailed attack on Trump at the DNC conference. those who are interested can listen to it here.

The warnings just could not be clearer. This is not party politics: it is the strongest possible warning that godly government will not come about as the result of an election being won by a conman and a hypocrite. Even to hope for this is to embrace a delusion, and to deny the evidence of the fruit that his tree is bearing.

Heather Cox Richardson is one of the most perceptive commentators of our time. In this particular edition of her popular Substack, she really takes the handbrake off in what she says. Three possibilities spring to mind as I read this:

1) Truth and reality are once again catching up with Trump – and that the deep bitter-root judgments that he has so lavishly sown against so many individuals and segments of society will overtake him.

2) That, under duress from his peers, Trump will adopt a new electoral policy and follow that (albeit, as I have indicated above, I believe this will be the ploy of a conman rather than representing a sincere change of heart.

3) That Trump will genuinely humble himself before the Lord. God did it for Manasseh – though his repentance did not spare the nation from suffering greatly. Huge numbers are currently being influenced and persuaded by prophets such as Troy Black to the effect that God is with Trump, even if he does not as yet realise this. This is tricky. Troy is a very sincere believer, as are so many others who declare Trump to be ‘God’s chosen.’ This is why we must pray for discernment to triumph: the cost of getting this wrong is just huge. Believe in a fantasy and you will reap havoc that will extend far beyond the boundaries of just the one nation.

*I thought that some of you might find these historic clips of Mussolini, as shown on vintage British Pathé news nigh on a century ago, interesting in that context. The second one that follows on beyond it is interesting too.

 

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